Curse

UnChosen · Nov 25, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

They can touch ER ele once they add in this:

Energy Storage: For every rank of energy storage, all elemental spells gain 5%-10% armor penetration, and have 5% chance of burning foes with burning immunity.

Otherwise, hands off.

Test Me · Nov 26, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Why do I even bother to make some sense in these trolling threads?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You don't need to play a monk to see how much more overpowered ER infuse is.

"Obviously". Well I play both too and my monk toon is not afraid is going to run out of business in favor of my ele toon.

Quote:

5 skills? WTH are you talking about, dude? All you NEED is ER and infuse.

OK since your maths is not in a good shape:
Elite Enchantment Spell. (21 seconds.) Each time you cast a spell, you gain 4 Energy and 20 Health for each enchantment on you.

That was the description for energy 12+1+3. Now do the maths and tell me how many enchants does the ele need to maintain? And does he need a glyph to maintain ER or not? So that would be how many skills of the build bar all dedicated to just the ER folly? 4 or 5 perhaps? And you do all that for being able to spam a single skill?

Well I don't know about you but in my book dedicating 4-5 skills for energy management/self healing is ... really bad energy management. Not to mention that interrupts and enchant stripping and symbiosis (which is a pretty common spirit) renders the build ... useless.

Well whatever... can't argue with fools, waste of time.

Xenomortis · Nov 26, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Elite Enchantment Spell. (21 seconds.) Each time you cast a spell, you gain 4 Energy and 20 Health for each enchantment on you.

That was the description for energy 12+1+3. Now do the maths and tell me how many enchants does the ele need to maintain? And does he need a glyph to maintain ER or not? So that would be how many skills of the build bar all dedicated to just the ER folly? 4 or 5 perhaps? And you do all that for being able to spam a single skill?

Maintaining ER is not necessary.
An Ele should manage the downtime on ER with a 20% enchantment set (about 5 seconds). The lack of Infuse spammability may hurt though.
GoS is more of a luxury than a necessity.
The same goes for Life Attunement, it boosts the healing from ER in two ways - from its effect and from the fact it's an extra enchantment. You should make do with just keeping Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond on yourself.

You maintain 3 enchantments on yourself (ER, LA and Aura of Restoration) for much more than just spamming Infuse. The prots Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit are just as (if not more) important. If you're so inclined, you can run Prot Bond and then, nothing is too difficult.

I can't really say Symbiosis renders the build useless either. It appears in two areas (Northern and Far Shiverpeaks) and only means PS prevents a little less damage - your initial infuse heals for more though.
And enchantment stripping is only dangerous in the forms Rend Enchantments, Gaze of Contempt and Well of the Profane. None of those are particularly common.
The biggest threat is perhaps ER being interrupted. But then, you just drop any maintained enchantments and manage your energy like a normal monk (and hey, you have much more energy to burn through in 30 seconds than any monk has).

Test Me · Nov 26, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You maintain 3 enchantments on yourself (ER, LA and Aura of Restoration)

Your point: you can make it suboptimally work with a min of 3 dedicated skills instead of 4-5. You say not a necessity ... maybe for NM. Even having to use 3 out of 8 slots seems a big price.

Quote:

And enchantment stripping is only dangerous in the forms Rend Enchantments, Gaze of Contempt and Well of the Profane. None of those are particularly common.
The biggest threat is perhaps ER being interrupted. But then, you just drop any maintained enchantments and manage your energy like a normal monk (and hey, you have much more energy to burn through in 30 seconds than any monk has).

So you just drop all enchants... adapt... put them back on when ready... you have a bigger energy pool cause you're playing an ele... but you don't have Divine Favor cause you're not playing a monk... It all seems so familiar... sounds to me like normal build play of a GW class.

Also remember the build has a single usage. It doesn't both heal and kill like spirit masters, perma sins, 55s, 600s, etc. It can do nothing by itself (solo). It can do nothing in a team of 8 ERs. It can do nothing in duo or any kind of farms. It's pretty useless unless in a full team and even so it would need extra heal/prot support in general. It can be shutdown by AI during normal play....

AtomicMew · Nov 26, 2009, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Your point: you can make it suboptimally work with a min of 3 dedicated skills instead of 4-5. You say not a necessity ... maybe for NM. Even having to use 3 out of 8 slots seems a big price.

Except the skills "3 dedicated skills" are neither three or dedicated. Or are you saying maintaining bonds on your whole party is useless? Wow, and you talk about logic fail.

Quote:

So you just drop all enchants... adapt... put them back on when ready... you have a bigger energy pool cause you're playing an ele... but you don't have Divine Favor cause you're not playing a monk... It all seems so familiar... sounds to me like normal build play of a GW class.

Who said anything about dropping enchantments? You burn through your energy for a while and then suddenly and magically you have infinite energy again. Yes it does seem familiar.

Quote:

Also remember the build has a single usage. It doesn't both heal and kill like spirit masters, perma sins, 55s, 600s, etc. It can do nothing by itself (solo). It can do nothing in a team of 8 ERs. It can do nothing in duo or any kind of farms. It's pretty useless unless in a full team and even so it would need extra heal/prot support in general. It can be shutdown by AI during normal play....

Way to miss the point completely.

Lishy · Nov 26, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

They can touch ER ele once they add in this:

Energy Storage: For every rank of energy storage, all elemental spells gain 5%-10% armor penetration, and have 5% chance of burning foes with burning immunity.

Otherwise, hands off.

Lol, pretty much this, but much more balanced, of course.
Eles suck now. Hardcore.
They've sucked ever since the introduction of Factions, in fact. Prophecies didn't have numerous high armor enemies like the other campaigns do.

StormX · Nov 26, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

No, but there is a downside to them doing it better than a monk. That is, there's no longer any reason for the monk to be used.

I don't call shaving off half your hp every time you heal an advantage. Sure they heal for big numbers but there is also a big downside. Furthermore if you have a decent prot/dmg reduction, such massive heals would be nothing more than overkill.

A monk can spam substantially large heals without saccing or dedicating 3-5 slots to energy management. I'd call that an advantage.

Quote:

Except the skills "3 dedicated skills" are neither three or dedicated. Or are you saying maintaining bonds on your whole party is useless? Wow, and you talk about logic fail.

You've never run this build before have you?

upier · Nov 26, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

Furthermore if you have a decent prot/dmg reduction, such massive heals would be nothing more than overkill.

You are aware that there is nothing wrong with an "overkill" if you aren't paying the price?
The problem of an overkill when it comes to healing is that you end up wasting energy on something that does not need that energy investment. An ER guy has unlimited energy so there is no downside to massively overhealing stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

A monk can spam substantially large heals without saccing or dedicating 3-5 slots to energy management. I'd call that an advantage.

But can a monk also run only ONE healing skill?

Test Me · Nov 26, 2009, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

An ER guy has unlimited energy so there is no downside to massively overhealing stuff.

A necro has an unlimited energy pool (hence all the necroways) - without using half their build bar for that, actually without using *any energy management skill* (not to mention an elite skill like ER... which is elite after all). So following the same logic and for the same reasons in this thread soul reaping needs to be nerfed, because having an unlimited energy pool is defective. (!?)

Xenomortis · Nov 26, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

A necro has an unlimited energy pool (hence all the necroways) - without using half their build bar for that, actually without using *any energy management skill* (not to mention an elite skill like ER... which is elite after all). So following the same logic and for the same reasons in this thread soul reaping needs to be nerfed, because having an unlimited energy pool is defective. (!?)

ER pus Soul Reaping to shame. The two are simply not comparable.
I can drain my energy with SR in a short amount of time. If I keep ER up and a couple of enchantments it is not physically possible to drain my energy.

The reason we run N/Rt's or N/Mo's for hero bars is because heroes are shit at energy management and SR is a pretty brainless form of energy management.
I myself prefer ER on a hero, even though they can't maintain it.

upier · Nov 26, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

A necro has an unlimited energy pool (hence all the necroways) - without using half their build bar for that, actually without using *any energy management skill* (not to mention an elite skill like ER... which is elite after all). So following the same logic and for the same reasons in this thread soul reaping needs to be nerfed, because having an unlimited energy pool is defective. (!?)

Yes.

(You are aware I've been bitching about the need for a SR nerf for years now, right?)

Jeydra · Nov 26, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

A necro has an unlimited energy pool (hence all the necroways) - without using half their build bar for that, actually without using *any energy management skill* (not to mention an elite skill like ER... which is elite after all). So following the same logic and for the same reasons in this thread soul reaping needs to be nerfed, because having an unlimited energy pool is defective. (!?)

You obviously aren't aware of just how much energy ER gives you. Illustration: with every cast, ER can give you 16 energy quite easily. That's every cast. Once every second. Soul Reaping gives you 16 energy x3 every 15s maximum. ER is a LOT more powerful than Soul Reaping at energy management.

What's more, the idea that you've used oh-so-many skills to make a build work makes it bad is just plain wrong. Permaform Assassins use Shadow Form, Deadly Paradox and Glyph of Swiftness. They're using skills to make Shadow Form work. What's wrong with that? The final end product is what matters, not how many skills you have to dedicate to it. If there were a skill that went something like 5e 0 recharge shout: target foe dies if you have no other skills equipped, would you call it overpowered? Think about it. You've used 7 slots on your skillbar to use this single skill, yet with this skill equipped you can go out there and slaughter everyone. Overpowered or not?

That said, I'll stick my head out now and call for no nerf to ER. There are multiple reasons:

1. There're lots of overpowered stuff in the game. ER is overpowered, but then so are so many other builds; until they are all nerfed it's not fair to nerf Ether Renewal.
2. Ether Renewal Elementalists can only be used in balanced builds. They cannot partake in speedclears nor can they be used to farm (not very well anyway). Unlike Shadow Form for example, Ether Renewal does not massively affect the economy / efficiency at clearing dungeons.
3. Ether Renewal is a bit overrated to be honest. It's had its weaknesses since Varda and I pioneered it, and those weaknesses haven't changed. Against areas where nothing threatens it it works very well. Against areas where the counters are there you can have lots of trouble. Stuff like Disenchantment, Strip Enchant / Gaze of Contempt / Rend Enchants, multiple interrupts, debilitating hexes, Dazed and Blind, party-wide degen, Sheer Exhaustion, etc - they all hurt Ether Renewal builds. Just because Ether Renewal works better than real Monks in several areas doesn't mean it works better in all.
4. Ether Renewal is a bit overrated to be honest. Sure, an ER Ele and a Smiter suffices for most areas of HM. I've experienced that myself first-hand, H/H. But then I amazed myself one day when I accidentally brought Mhenlo + a Smiter into Gate of Pain HM (or whatsisname mission - the one where you have to kill Terrorblade Dryders who're farming souls). I lived, and that's with Mhenlo being a rather unspectacular Monk. Real Monks have received quite a few buffs too (e.g. Selfless Spirit, Divine Boon).
5. Elementalists have no other options. Unless they get buffs somewhere else, what's a poor Elementalist going to do?

If someone argues that when you have a full 8-man team (or close to it), ER Elementalists are typically better choices than Monks, then I'd point out that if you have a full 8-man team you should be able to blaze through every area in the game with real Monks, no big difference.

And finally: some have said that no profession should be able to tread on others' toes the way Elementalists outheal Monks and Warriors use Scythes better than Dervs. Simple question though: exactly why not? What's wrong with having an Elementalist that can heal better than Monks? They've always been able to heal better than Monks. Before Ether Renewal you could run Ether Prodigy + Heal Other + Jamei's Gaze and pump out more heals than a real Monk ever could. Post Ether Renewal you could run Ether Renewal + Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond and pump out more prots than a real Monk ever could, but you still have weaknesses only the Monk can clean up. Is it somehow wrong to have a successful build that utilizes the secondary profession? If so, I don't see why.

Conclusion: if ER is to be nerfed, then #1 buff Elementalists somehow and #2 nerf everything to go along with it. There is no shortage of overpowered PvE skills. Nerf them all, and then maybe nerf ER.

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You obviously aren't aware of just how much energy ER gives you. Illustration: with every cast, ER can give you 16 energy quite easily. That's every cast. Once every second. Soul Reaping gives you 16 energy x3 every 15s maximum. ER is a LOT more powerful than Soul Reaping at energy management.

What's more, the idea that you've used oh-so-many skills to make a build work makes it bad is just plain wrong. Permaform Assassins use Shadow Form, Deadly Paradox and Glyph of Swiftness. They're using skills to make Shadow Form work. What's wrong with that? The final end product is what matters, not how many skills you have to dedicate to it. If there were a skill that went something like 5e 0 recharge shout: target foe dies if you have no other skills equipped, would you call it overpowered? Think about it. You've used 7 slots on your skillbar to use this single skill, yet with this skill equipped you can go out there and slaughter everyone. Overpowered or not?

All very true.

Quote:

1. There're lots of overpowered stuff in the game. ER is overpowered, but then so are so many other builds; until they are all nerfed it's not fair to nerf Ether Renewal.

The problem with this line of logic is that the only way anything will ever get fixed under it is if everything gets fixed at once.

Quote:

2. Ether Renewal Elementalists can only be used in balanced builds. They cannot partake in speedclears nor can they be used to farm (not very well anyway). Unlike Shadow Form for example, Ether Renewal does not massively affect the economy / efficiency at clearing dungeons.

Quote:

3. Ether Renewal is a bit overrated to be honest. It's had its weaknesses since Varda and I pioneered it, and those weaknesses haven't changed. Against areas where nothing threatens it it works very well. Against areas where the counters are there you can have lots of trouble. Stuff like Disenchantment, Strip Enchant / Gaze of Contempt / Rend Enchants, multiple interrupts, debilitating hexes, Dazed and Blind, party-wide degen, Sheer Exhaustion, etc - they all hurt Ether Renewal builds. Just because Ether Renewal works better than real Monks in several areas doesn't mean it works better in all.

How often do you see deep enchantment removal, really? You're more likely to come across touch skills or offensive signets.

Dazed and debilitating hexes hurt monks just as much as ER healers.

I don't understand the party-wide degen argument. It would seem to me that ER healers would actually be better at dealing with it than monks. When it comes to party healing, the monk's best friend is Heal Party, which takes 2 seconds to cast. In that time, the ER healer can infuse half the party. And then, by the time Heal Party recharges, the ER healer has infused the other half of the party. Since Infuse is more powerful than Heal Party, the ER healer wins out in party healing. Is there something I'm missing here?

Quote:

4. Ether Renewal is a bit overrated to be honest. Sure, an ER Ele and a Smiter suffices for most areas of HM. I've experienced that myself first-hand, H/H. But then I amazed myself one day when I accidentally brought Mhenlo + a Smiter into Gate of Pain HM (or whatsisname mission - the one where you have to kill Terrorblade Dryders who're farming souls). I lived, and that's with Mhenlo being a rather unspectacular Monk. Real Monks have received quite a few buffs too (e.g. Selfless Spirit, Divine Boon).

Real monks are certainly good. But why use anything less than the best?

Quote:

5. Elementalists have no other options. Unless they get buffs somewhere else, what's a poor Elementalist going to do?

First off, the status quo is no better, except that monks are the ones left asking themselves that question. So I don't see that as being a very good argument.

Second, elementalists do have things they can do. They just don't involve nuking. There's OF (which will probably become the standard for tanking after the next skill update), for example. And in the case of this particular example, there are still many opportunities for elementalists to be useful, even with ER. For example, you could spam Blood Ritual.

And then there's this build I came up with one day:

ER+GoS+MirageCloak+SignetOfPiousLight+AoR+Convicti on+AoS+MysticRegen

60 PBAoE earth dmg every 1.25 sec, infinite energy, weakness spam, tons of health regen, 80 armor, and a 250 self-heal every time you do the chain. Tell me that isn't useful.

And you could merge it with earth magic for less damage but more tanking. And I don't even have an elementalist! Imagine what someone better with the class could come up with. The true potential of ER has yet to be explored.

Quote:

And finally: some have said that no profession should be able to tread on others' toes the way Elementalists outheal Monks and Warriors use Scythes better than Dervs. Simple question though: exactly why not? What's wrong with having an Elementalist that can heal better than Monks? They've always been able to heal better than Monks. Before Ether Renewal you could run Ether Prodigy + Heal Other + Jamei's Gaze and pump out more heals than a real Monk ever could. Post Ether Renewal you could run Ether Renewal + Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond and pump out more prots than a real Monk ever could, but you still have weaknesses only the Monk can clean up. Is it somehow wrong to have a successful build that utilizes the secondary profession? If so, I don't see why.

No, but it's wrong to have a build that makes a primary profession worthless. Why play as a dervish when anything you could do using the dervish would be done better by a warrior/dervish, regardless of what secondary class the dervish took?

Test Me · Nov 26, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Isn't it funny how everyone except the two "ER is the doom of monks" is basically agreeing this is not a problem and all have decent opinions on it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What's more, the idea that you've used oh-so-many skills to make a build work makes it bad is just plain wrong. Permaform Assassins use Shadow Form, Deadly Paradox and Glyph of Swiftness. They're using skills to make Shadow Form work. What's wrong with that? The final end product is what matters, not how many skills you have to dedicate to it. If there were a skill that went something like 5e 0 recharge shout: target foe dies if you have no other skills equipped, would you call it overpowered? Think about it. You've used 7 slots on your skillbar to use this single skill, yet with this skill equipped you can go out there and slaughter everyone. Overpowered or not?

The difference is as you point out very well and are well aware is that ER builds don't prevent all damage (god mode) + dish out damage to kill any foe. It is so limited in usefulness that it only really has one purpose, one of the crappiest if you ask me since I don't believe in overhealing and prefer protection.

Quote:

That said, I'll stick my head out now and call for no nerf to ER. There are multiple reasons:

1. There're lots of overpowered stuff in the game. ER is overpowered, but then so are so many other builds; until they are all nerfed it's not fair to nerf Ether Renewal.
2. Ether Renewal Elementalists can only be used in balanced builds. They cannot partake in speedclears nor can they be used to farm (not very well anyway). Unlike Shadow Form for example, Ether Renewal does not massively affect the economy / efficiency at clearing dungeons.
3. Ether Renewal is a bit overrated to be honest. It's had its weaknesses since Varda and I pioneered it, and those weaknesses haven't changed. Against areas where nothing threatens it it works very well. Against areas where the counters are there you can have lots of trouble. Stuff like Disenchantment, Strip Enchant / Gaze of Contempt / Rend Enchants, multiple interrupts, debilitating hexes, Dazed and Blind, party-wide degen, Sheer Exhaustion, etc - they all hurt Ether Renewal builds. Just because Ether Renewal works better than real Monks in several areas doesn't mean it works better in all.
4. Ether Renewal is a bit overrated to be honest. Sure, an ER Ele and a Smiter suffices for most areas of HM. I've experienced that myself first-hand, H/H. But then I amazed myself one day when I accidentally brought Mhenlo + a Smiter into Gate of Pain HM (or whatsisname mission - the one where you have to kill Terrorblade Dryders who're farming souls). I lived, and that's with Mhenlo being a rather unspectacular Monk. Real Monks have received quite a few buffs too (e.g. Selfless Spirit, Divine Boon).
5. Elementalists have no other options. Unless they get buffs somewhere else, what's a poor Elementalist going to do?

If someone argues that when you have a full 8-man team (or close to it), ER Elementalists are typically better choices than Monks, then I'd point out that if you have a full 8-man team you should be able to blaze through every area in the game with real Monks, no big difference.

And finally: some have said that no profession should be able to tread on others' toes the way Elementalists outheal Monks and Warriors use Scythes better than Dervs. Simple question though: exactly why not? What's wrong with having an Elementalist that can heal better than Monks? They've always been able to heal better than Monks. Before Ether Renewal you could run Ether Prodigy + Heal Other + Jamei's Gaze and pump out more heals than a real Monk ever could. Post Ether Renewal you could run Ether Renewal + Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond and pump out more prots than a real Monk ever could, but you still have weaknesses only the Monk can clean up. Is it somehow wrong to have a successful build that utilizes the secondary profession? If so, I don't see why.

Conclusion: if ER is to be nerfed, then #1 buff Elementalists somehow and #2 nerf everything to go along with it. There is no shortage of overpowered PvE skills. Nerf them all, and then maybe nerf ER.

Exactly what I've been saying all along. And what many other said as well in this thread. Just that no matter how rational you and I are and how many arguments we bring to the table we'll never convince the two preachers of doom.

So I'll stop here.

Xenomortis · Nov 26, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

The difference is as you point out very well and are well aware is that ER builds don't prevent all damage (god mode) + dish out damage to kill any foe. It is so limited in usefulness that it only really has one purpose, one of the crappiest if you ask me since I don't believe in overhealing and prefer protection0.

You really don't get it.
ER allows for spamming Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond on recharge, almost all the time. That's spamming two of the most powerful prots in the game.
Or they could run Prot Bond and maintain that on everyone.
Their damage mitigation capabilities exceed that of anything else. They then have one big heal.

What they crumble against are heavy pressure from either lots of damage sources, hexes or irritating conditions. That's when you need strong cleaning and some lighter, but less costly* healing.

*In the long run Infuse is basically free, but you cannot spam it on recharge for long, even on an ER.

ER is overpowered. What it allows is ridiculous.
With two ER Eles keeping you alive, the amount of stupidity your team can get away with is insane.
But it doesn't hold a candle to what currently exists. There are some things that need to go first.

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Isn't it funny how everyone except the two "ER is the doom of monks" is basically agreeing this is not a problem and all have decent opinions on it?

The difference is as you point out very well and are well aware is that ER builds don't prevent all damage (god mode) + dish out damage to kill any foe. It is so limited in usefulness that it only really has one purpose, one of the crappiest if you ask me since I don't believe in overhealing and prefer protection.

Exactly what I've been saying all along. And what many other said as well in this thread. Just that no matter how rational you and I are and how many arguments we bring to the table we'll never convince the two preachers of doom.

So I'll stop here.

I'm sorry, but the two standard arguments thus far have been: 1) Who cares? Monks are still the meta, and 2) Eles have nothing else to do.

Neither of these actually addresses the central concern that ER healers are so much better than primary monks that running one is suboptimal.

Nobody is preaching a scenario of doom. I for one don't expect ER to become meta for a while, if ever (due to people's stubborn refusal to accept the idea that some other profession might just be able to outheal the monk). We're saying that
A) ER healers > Monks
B) This is wrong
Therefore:
C) It should be changed.

The Drunkard · Nov 26, 2009, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Nobody is preaching a scenario of doom. I for one don't expect ER to become meta for a while, if ever (due to people's stubborn refusal to accept the idea that some other profession might just be able to outheal the monk). We're saying that
A) ER healers > Monks
B) This is wrong
Therefore:
C) It should be changed.

Why is it wrong? Necs can still outheal rits and they haven't been nerfed. Ele's really can't do anything in HM that isn't terrible aside from ER, SF, and AP spam.

Last time I checked there was a thread about ERs being the deaths of monks.

/notsigned

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Because Rits have other things they can do besides heal; things necros can't do as well as they can. It's fine so long as everyone has something they can contribute better than everyone else. Monks currently do not.

Xenomortis · Nov 26, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Because Rits have other things they can do besides heal; things necros can't do as well as they can. It's fine so long as everyone has something they can contribute better than everyone else. Monks currently do not.

If I want cleaning with lighter heals, I won't bring an ER Ele.
The downside is I can usually cram enough cleaning onto the midline to make do using monk elites.

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Thank you for making my point for me.